Jack Nicklaus Interview with Allan Dodds Frank from For the Record

A BLOCK

Welcome to For the Record, I'm Allan Dodds Frank. Jack is the golfer of the century, a title he earned after winning 18 major championships the first at age 22. Now, 67 JN has been a role model and hero to countless golfers including Tiger Woods.

I met Jack at the Tournament Players Club of Boston where he was giving the Captains speech to the U.S. presidents cup team.

I began by asking him about the state of golf course design worldwide.

We're unbelievably strong around the world right now. We're doin' probably-- two-thirds or more of our business outside the United States. The Eastern block has become very, very strong. The Caribbean's become very strong-- for us. Argentina, Chile, South Africa-- all through Asia, China's been very strong. Korea's strong.

00:07:10:00 We-- where we have slowed down a little bit in the United States, actually the United States, the West Coast of the United States is still very strong. we have very little happening in the eastern part of the United States.

QUESTION: 00:07:50:00 So, the rest of world is in effect picking up the slack for you?

The game of golf is spreading throughout the world. It's not so much about interest rates and mortgages on houses and-- and this kind of thing. It's-- it's about taking a game that has been basically a-- an American game or-- or-- or a very Western European game and basically British Isles. It's spread through Europe, and now it's spreading into Eastern Europe.

Russia, for instance-- is really kind of interesting right now. The Mayor of Moscow has-- decided he wants-- at least-- at least what I've been told, he wants 14 golf courses built around Moscow. Now to the present day, we just finished the second golf course in Russia, and he wants 14 more.

How would you compare Japan versus China today in terms of golf and what's going on?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:10:03:00 Well, there's not much happening in Japan. We are doing one new golf course in Japan right now. First golf course I've done probably in 12 years or more which will be a very nice project.

China, on the other hand-- we're doing golf courses all over China. I've got an office in Hong Kong that-- that basically does that. We have-- there are several golf courses pr-- ways we do golf courses.

00:10:39:00 We do Nicklaus Signature golf courses, Jack Nicklaus Signature's.

We do Nicklaus golf courses. We do Nicklaus designed golf courses. We do-- my kids, we do-- our designers do things. There's-- there's a variety of price range in other words in the golf course business.

QUESTION: 00:10:53:00 Right. And what's-- what's the price range from X to Y?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:10:57:00 Oh, it-- it varies. Whatever-- whatever-- whatever makes common sense. I mean, it can vary anywhere from several million dollars to-- down to probably about five-- $500,000 is about the least we do a golf course for now.

Now, you designed more than 300 golf courses. Tiger Woods has just announced he's-- he's gonna design one. How's that gonna affect competition?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:11:20:00 I think it'll only stimulate the game. And it's-- there's been a lot of interest, a lot of talk. You're asking a question about it. Why are you asking a question about it? Because Tiger has gotten involved. Tiger's the biggest name in golf today. He's-- he-- he's interested in it. He-- he's excited about it, and people are interested in reading about it.

00:11:35:00 Well, when Tiger's talking about two projects, both a $25 million budget for him. So, if-- if that-- if that-- we love to hear that, because that just raises the bar for everybody else. Is Tiger getting $25 million per golf course? No, of course, he's not getting $25 million.

00:11:49:00 But does he have the potential to make $25 million (UNINTEL), that's-- that's-- that's where they've structured the deal and (UNINTEL). I assume. I shouldn't say th-- that he's not, because I don't think it (?). But I can't imagine-- I've done golf courses for one of the-- one of the gentleman. He's not gonna pay $25 million for a golf course.

00:12:06:00 And-- so, anyway, the-- but Tiger's involvement is great. It's great for the game. It's taking what he knows. It's what I did 30 years ago or 40 years ago, what I found out and what I learned in the game and being able to put it on a piece of ground to be here long beyond his golf game and his lifetime. And it's there for people to enjoy. It's to expand the growth and make the game grow. And-- you know, and-- and-- and it's a natural extension for Tiger, the same as it was for me, to be able to, you know, play this game and be able to put it on a piece of ground.

QUESTION: 00:12:36:00 How is your philosophy of changing courses-- I mean, designing courses changed over the years?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:12:42:00 Oh, tremendously. When I first started, it was-- you know, it was-- it was-- it was a novelty to me. It was-- I was fascinated with the idea of putting something on a piece of ground. The idea of having a few ideas to be able to put on this piece of ground. Tiger can only have a few ideas at this point. He doesn't know enough about it to be able to-- to be able to design a golf course. He knows enough about it, and he knows what he likes. And I knew what I liked at that point in time.

00:13:08:00 And so, he'll be able to transpose what he thinks about a golf course and what I-- and I-- like I was able to do. Most of the courses I did when I first started were for tournament golf.

And so I did, you know, Meer (PH) Field Village, Glen Abbey (PH), Shoal Creek, (PH) Castle Pines, Australian Golf Club, all the golf courses that held major-- major events on. And, you know, so I was able to get into it as a golfer and the way I played into those golf courses. And-- that-- that was-- that was fun for me.

And so, you gotta learn how to design the golf course not only for-- for the ability to be able to house a tournament, but you really design it for who's going to play it 51 weeks a year. And it-- it's the average golfer and the-- and the women, the kids, the beginners. You've gotta be able to get them around the golf course.

00:14:05:00 They've gotta be able to have an enjoyable experience. They've gotta have fun, so the philos-- and-- and-- and also, it's whatever the owner's philosophy is. If the owner of that golf course decides that-- he wants to have a golf course that-- is 5800 yards long, that's my job. That's what he's paying me to do, to have a 5800 yard golf course. Now if he wants an 8500 yard golf course, I'll try to talk him out of that, 'cause it doesn't make much sense 'cause nobody can play it. Fifty-eight hundred, God, everybody can play, but probably it's not enough golf course.

00:14:33:00 So, you've gotta go through the thing and figure out what does the owner want, what's he trying to accomplish. And my definition of a good golf course is a golf course that I'm-- I've designed that services a purpose for-- for the owner for which he's trying to do his project.

After the break, Jack Nicklaus talks about his role with the Royal Bank of Scotland as RBS tries to conquer the Americas.

B BLOCK

One of Jack Nicklaus' most important endorsement deals is with the Royal Bank of Scotland. His face is even on a 5 pound note, so I asked him about the bank's drive for acquisitions.

What do you-- what is a bank hoping you will accomplish for them especially in the United States.

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:15:27:00 Well, I've been working with 'em for five years. I'm in my fifth year of the contract, actually the second contract. It was a three, and then another three year contract. And now we're talking about renewing again. But when-- when-- when the Royal Bank came to me, and actually it was done by Mark McCormick . And Mark had a relationship with Fred Goodwin who was the CEO of-- of-- of the Royal Bank of Scotland.

00:15:53:00 And-- so he said, "You know, I think Jack can do a lot of things, and you wanna move into the United States." And-- and-- people ask you-- ask-- asked five years ago what was the Royal Bank of-- of Scotland. Nobody had a clue. Royal Bank of Scotland is the-- is the fourth largest bank in the world, the sixth largest bank in the United States. But in those days, they wanted to tr-- tra-- they want-- what they-- what they hired me for was to be able to bring them into the United States on name awareness, change from Royal Bank of Scotland to RBS, to get RBS (UNINTEL) Scottish bank.

QUESTION: 00:16:26:00 Right. JACK NICKLAUS: 00:16:28:00 To help them work on their expansion-- since they bought-- you know, Citizens and Mellon and Charter One and whatever--

QUESTION: 00:16:35:00 They wanna buy LaSalle Bank and ABM (UNINTEL)--

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:16:37:00 They've been working on that. And-- you know, they're gonna get part of that done. I don't know what-- what part of it. That's not my-- my-- my part. But (UNINTEL) place first had me helping me with-- with-- with-- with meeting the people, playing gold with 'em, doing kinds of things like that, doing television obviously. I think what they've handled with (UNINTEL) television has been a wonderful thing for me. They've done a wonderful job, and-- hopefully, it's been a good job for them, 'cause I mean, there's an awful lot of people who now know who RBS and the Royal Bank of Scotland is who didn't know about it before. And-- that's my job.

QUESTION: 00:17:10:00 So, we should inter-- my-- our-- our audience should interpret their increased involvement in golf in the United States, particularly with you, as a signal that they continue to be more aggressive in the United States.

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:17:21:00 I would think so. Yeah, I think-- I think their-- their-- their intentions in the United States are to continue to grow. I think they wanted to start on East Coast. They've worked their way into the Midwest, and I think they'll start-- keep working their way West.

QUESTION: Do you ever think about taking a rest, or shall we just talk about some of your partners?

JACK NICKLAUS: I'm involved in clothing. I'm involved in-- you know, golf equipment. I'm involved in-- in-- in-- in the banking world. And-- you know, there are a couple of other things I'm involved in, but nothing specific-- or really very large. The Royal Bank is my-- is my biggest involvement.

Okay, now what do you think-- all this time you've been in business, decades, the-- the biggest mistake you ever made was?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:21:30:00 Hopefully I made a lot of 'em, because you don't learn if you don't make mistakes. And I made a bunch.

QUESTION: 00:21:33:00 Which ones are the ones you think about a lot?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:21:35:00 Well-- let's see. The biggest ones-- the biggest thing I ever did, biggest mistake I ever did was let my guys talk me into taking a company-- a c-- a part of the company public. That was the biggest mistake I ever made.

I had no idea what-- what the rules and laws were of a public company. And we did a public company. And a lot of people lost money, including me-- as-- as relating to doing that public company. And-- fortunately-- I stood-- I stood up to the loses of that company. And-- the company-- the company got through it.

And-- we're n-- it's no longer a public company. And-- but it was a great lesson. And lessons-- but, you know, hey, if y-- if-- if you're gonna get into that business, you better now what the devil you're doing. that was one mistake I made.

00:23:14:00 I think I made a mistake in-- in-- in-- in a couple of developments where golf courses (UNINTEL) started on-- where I ended up-- taking on the-- the project was not doing well. So, I ended up taking the project.

Well, I ended up ow-- owing lots of millions of dollars, because I took what their problems were and thought I could fix 'em. Well, you know, I didn't fix 'em. I ended up-- I ended up payin' for 'em, but I did not fix them.

00:23:41:00 So, you learn from those things. You learn not to do those things. And-- I think the best thing I-- that I've learned is you better-- when you're-- you're gonna do something, you better surround yourself with people that understand the-- the-- the task at hand.

QUESTION: 00:24:11:00 Well, now you have the quintessential family business empire. You have all four sons and your one son-in-law involved. How does that work?

Does it make you nervous, happy, both?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:24:24:00 Well, you know, I-- I didn't-- I didn't get them involved on purpose. They got involved, 'cause they wanted to. I may-- as I grew up with my kids, I tried to introduce them to everything, not necessarily golf.

(UNINTEL) three of 'em turned out to be a golf pro and the other one-- are golf pros and the other one-- is a scratch handicap. And dad never really got to 'em to teach 'em how to play. But that's what they wanted to do.

00:24:50:00 Likewise we get into-- into the design business and (UNINTEL), they've all enjoyed-- and I-- and I-- and-- and as a father, it's fabulous. I love h-- working with my kids. And nothing could be-- not-- any father would love to work with his kids, if he can. So, to have my kids there, be with 'em, work with 'em is a blast.

00:25:08:00 Now, the problem is you have a lot of eggs in the same basket.

You know, recently, I've sold a piece of my company, you know, and that-- and the kids owned the company anyway. So, the kids ended up having some wealth. So now they-- they have the ability to do what they want. And-- that was my-- my goal was to get them off to a reasonable start in life, let them do what they want to beyond that point.

Tease: After the break, Jack Nicklaus talks about if he expects Tiger Woods to break his record.

C BLOCK:

Jack Nicklaus has won 18 major championships over a 24 year stretch. Tiger Woods has won 13 majors so I asked the Golden Bear about Tiger's hot pursuit.

Do you think he's gonna catch you?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:28:41:00 I would think it would be very difficult for him not to. He's the most talented golfer I've ever seen. He's-- he-- he-- he's so strong-- between years (?). He understands himself and he understands how to win.

00:29:00:00 He understands what to do and when to do it and how to do it and how to keep your composure and how to-- how to-- how-- how to control the one thing he can control, that's himself. And that's the only thing you can control. And he does that better than anybody.

Tiger Woods has said that you were his role model. What do you think the most important advice you've ever given him is?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:27:55:00 I don't think I've ever given him a whole lot of advice. I-- I-- (LAUGHS) I think Tiger's-- Tiger's a-- a very well grounded young man. He's smart. He's-- very articulate. He's-- handles himself well.

00:28:10:00 He's been a good to-- he's been a good person to pass the baton to. So-- but as far as asking advice, I don't think Tiger's ever really asked me a question as relating-- about what to do.

QUESTION: 00:28:21:00 Really?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:28:22:00 I don't think so. I think that he may have-- he may have used me as an example to follow and follow what he thought I did. But I don't think he's ever specifically asked me a question he said, "(UNINTEL) Jack, what do you think about this?" I don't think he's ever asked me a question like that. Let's turn to the state of golf today.

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:26:21:00 Sure.

QUESTION: 00:26:23:00 Your old friend, Gary Player, said recently that he thought some golfers are using steroids or other performance enhancing drugs. What do you think about that?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:26:31:00 Well, I think-- I think that was a response to-- to the Tour's position that they were g-- it was announced they were going to test. And that they thought that probably-- in my-- my-- my opinion, there's a-- I don't think there is in the game. Could there be? Probably could be. If Gary says that he knows somebody, maybe he does. I don't. Could there be some guys involved? Could be. But in my opinion, I think the game will come out fairly clean from that standpoint. I think the players will come out clean--

QUESTION: 00:27:01:00 Do you think golf should lead the way for professional sports by having everybody tested?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:27:05:00 Oh, I think it's fine. I don't think there's any issue of that (?), 'cause if-- if it beco-- if it is an issue, fine. If it's not an issue, then let's find out and-- and move on-- move on with life.

00:27:24:00 The one thing about the game of golf is you always called-- you know, called the rules and penalties on yourself. (BACKGROUND VOICE) And it's-- and-- and you're only cheating yourself and-- and the integrity that you built up over time, if you-- if you are cheating. And it's the same in-- in the-- in the body. And if you're doing that, then, okay, let's-- let's-- let's-- let's just tell the world we aren't. And test 'em.

Even if-- even as Tiger Woods is so popular, golf is still having trouble in the United States. Why-- why-- what has-- has to be done?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:34:26:00 Well, I think part of it is the golf ball. Part of it is the space we're taking to play golf, and the time we take to play-- play golf. The game is just barely-- just emerging through these other countries.

00:34:37:00 And, you know, with the world getting smaller and people being able to travel, then they're finding that-- and there are all these other countries that they wanna play this game, 'cause it's a-- a very fascinating game. It-- it-- it actually-- it-- it-- it grabs a hold of you and won't let you go. And people found that in the States, but to find it and say gee, I don't have enough time to do this. But overseas, they're startin' to find it and they're startin' to learn it and it's startin' to grow.

Track: even Jack Nicklaus does not often play 18 holes. When he is not busy with his businesses, he is spending time with his wife Barbara, 5 kids, and 20 grandchildren.

When we were on our way over here, you told me that you were just helping one of our grandchildren's friends. You were teaching kids how to punt footballs.

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:18:46:00 Well, I punted when I was a kid. And one of my grand kids called me the other day, and he said-- Peepaw (SIC), they call me. He said, "Peepaw," he says, "we need some help teaching-- the-- the coach needs some help working with the kids and teach them how to punt." You gotta learn how to spin it and learn how-- learn how to play catch with a football and then-- and develop that in to a style of punting. I mean, it's-- it's like any other sport.

When we return, Jack Nicklaus talks about the state of the game and why he doesn't like the hot ball.

D BLOCK:

Welcome back to For the Record, Jack Nicklaus says the game of golf has changed dramatically since he dominated the game and not all of the changes are for the better.

Some of your most famous shots were made with a one-iron. Even your own golf equipment company doesn't (LAUGHS) regularly sell a one-iron.

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:29:20:00 They don't-- nobody makes a one-iron anymore. No, (UNINTEL) use that for is a lightning rod anymore. (LAUGHTER) And so, (UNINTEL PHRASE) a one-iron.

QUESTION: 00:29:30:00 Right. Now, do you miss it? I mean, what do you think will have a-- 00:29:33:00 (OVERTALK)

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:29:33:00 Well-- well, essentially what's happened, they still do make a one-iron. It's just those two on the bottom of it (?). Now-- the evolution of the golf club came back when the holding (?) company made some irons some 25 or 30 years ago, they were too light.

00:29:49:00 And they said, "Oh, my gosh. We spent all this money. We got all these clubs back. Now, they're all too light." They lengthened the shaft three quarters of an inch to bring the swing rate up to a normal weight. All of a sudden, everybody said, "Jiminy Christmas. I made my five-iron yard-- five-iron 15 yards farther."

00:30:04:00 Well, they had a club that was three quarters of an inch longer. They said, "Well, that's pretty good." Yeah. Wha-- what's wrong with that? What-- we'll use this to our marketing advantage. (UNINTEL) well why don't we take the five-iron, just put "six" on the bottom of it?

QUESTION: 00:30:18:00 Okay. Now, you--

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:30:19:00 And so that's what they've done through the set.

QUESTION: 00:30:21:00 You and Artie have both said the problem is not the club, it's the ball. Can you just tell me about that real quick? in my opinion, the-- the golf ball is the culprit today.

00:30:47:00 Because you-- you could change equipment. But-- but that'll be like asking me to play-- to go back and hit wooden shafts. And the kids all grew up with-- with the graphite shaft, they grew up with metal head, they all grew up with perimeter weighting. They all grew up with the things that they're using. And the only thing that's-- that's the-- the constant is the golf ball. And I mean, to me, it makes no difference whether the golf ball goes 320 yards or 280 yards. I mean, it's all relative-- same for everybody.

What do you think about the money and the style of the younger players who don't seem to be as powerful as you and Barney and Gary were? And who do you like to watch?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:32:15:00 Well, you know, I think that-- the money today-- I think it's great for the guys. And did we have that? No. I mean, we played golf to make a name so that we could go make a living. The guys today can play golf and win a prize and make a living off of the prize. Big difference. You know, I think it's--

QUESTION: 00:32:38:00 But who are some of the na-- young names we should watch who right now are just making money who are kind of anonymous-- 00:32:43:00 (OVERTALK)

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:32:43:00 Well, Tiger Woods is one.

QUESTION: 00:32:45:00 Well-- (LAUGHTER)

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:32:45:00 Somebody oughta watch him. He's pretty good. But I mean, there's a lotta young players, (UNINTEL PHRASE) been the-- the biggest surge this year. Hunter's (PH)-- Hunter's doin' very, very well. 00:32:55:00 But there's a lotta young kids that are comin' along in college-- and-- and high school that-- that'll come along. I mean, and I still believe that Tiger's greatest-- com-- opponent and competitor has yet to surface to the pro ranks. And I think that'll happen within the next two or three years.

QUESTION: 00:33:11:00 Really?

JACK NICKLAUS: 00:33:12:00 I don't know who it's gonna be. But I think it'll surface. I think that really, what's happened is that-- that Tiger has had-- had it pretty much by himself. And-- as-- as-- as-- as-- as-- Arnold had it pretty much by himself for awhile til Gary and-- and then I came along, you know.

00:33:28:00 I had it for four or five years. Tiger's had it for four or five years. But-- but golf goes through cycles. I mean, all sports get through those cycles. That's no-- no fault of Tiger's. It's just the fault of-- the game is the (UNINTEL) produce the guy who is-- actually can come up and challenge it. And I think we'll have-- we will have that somewhere along the line.

QUESTION: 00:33:44:00 You're not prepared to tell us which of your grandchildren that is?

I got 20 of 'em. But-- but they-- and they all play a little bit. And the best one right now is-- is-- is Gary's four-year-old. He's-- he's-- playin' in the U.S. kids' tournament and he's shootin' in the mid-40s at four year old.

Close: Jack Nicklaus says the game of golf is booming worldwide and he predicts that someday a golfer will emerge to challenge Tiger Woods just as he once did to Arnold Palmer. I'm Allan Dodds Frank, join us next week on For The Record.